MARCH 24, 2004

7:30 PM



Chairman Ian Murray called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.


Clerk Ruth Drumm called the roll.  Chairman Ian Murray – present, Susan Cummings  – present, Ralph Pascucci – absent, Albert Baker – absent, Paul Griffen – absent, Laurie Griffen – present, Robert Park – present, and Alternate Barney Drumm – present

Also attending: Town Engineer Kenneth Martin, Clerk Ruth Drumm and others as noted on the meeting sign-in sheet on file with the Planning Board Clerk.


Approval of Minutes: All board members present had read the minutes of the February 25, 2004 meeting.  A motion was made by Robert Park and seconded by Laurie Griffen to accept the minutes of February 25, 2004 as written.  Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – absent, Albert Baker – absent, Paul Griffen – absent, Robert Park - aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, Susan Cummings - aye, and Barney Drumm - aye. 

Carried 5-0



Preliminary Subdivision


#04-06 Edward & Florence Charbonneau, Owners

             116 County Route 68

             Saratoga Springs, NY 12866

Conservancy District S/B/L 167-1-16, 17, 9


Applicants seeking a three-lot subdivision of 6.93 acres on County Rd. 68, fronting Fish Creek. Lot 1 to Robert and Jean Tarrant of 1.69 acres for a proposed marina, Lot 2 and Lot 3 for daughters Sandra Dalzell and Denise Tefoe.   Sandra Dalzell and Edward Charbonneau addressed the board.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that per the minutes of the February 25th meeting, and with discussions with other board members, the map being presented tonight is not what was recommended and it is not acceptable as presented.  Lot #3 is now presented as a nonconforming lot with a 20’ wide roadway that would have to be 30’ wide for any possibility of approval.  The board insisted that they never recommended such a lot.  It is looking now like a flag lot but still doesn’t fit the criteria to create a flag lot.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that Lot #3, as presented now, is not what was discussed with Attorney Dean Coon at the last meeting.  Edward Charbonneau asked if the 30’ driveway is all that is needed to make it acceptable.  Chairman Ian Murray said a new driveway would be needed that would withstand access for a 50,000 pound emergency vehicle.  Robert Tarrant addressed the board and expressed his disagreement with what Chairman Ian Murray was stating and that the map is exactly what was recommended. 




Chairman Ian Murray again stated that it is not what was recommended and Robert Park added that the board would not agree to a 20’ access when the regulations are clear that

30’ is required.


(Ralph Pascucci arrived at 7:55 p.m.)


Sandra Dalzell explained that at the last meeting she was requesting to divide the #2 and #3 lots into 2 future saleable lots of 2 + acres each.  Ian Murray said that the saleable lot issue was not discussed at the last meeting and that the board at that meeting was trying to improve a nonconforming lot by adding road frontage.  It was noted that dimensions were not mentioned by either the applicants or the board. Laurie Griffen pointed out that the misunderstanding seems to have arisen because at the last meeting the Charbonneau’s were talking about making two future saleable lots and the Planning Board was trying to correct the nonconforming lot issue.  Chairman Ian Murray and Ralph Pascucci agreed that they recommended changes to Dean Coon and the Charbonneau’s to make the center lot a viable conforming lot to build a house on and to move the line accordingly away from his house. Robert Tarrant again expressed his distress with the board over the progress of the process that was started last November.  Chairman Ian Murray noted that changes have occurred in the size of the marina lot, which started out as 2.5 acres then went to 2 acres and is now 1.69 acres.  Other changes have been made over the last two meetings in the effort to divide the parcels to accommodate the existing structures and with saving the dock for the Charbonneau’s.  Laurie Griffen noted that there was no notation of a cottage on lot #3 on the map the board had last month.  The board agreed that it was not included on the map and would have made things much clearer.  Town Engineer Ken Martin noted that even with the 30’ access they would still need to go before the ZBA for a variance because it does not meet the criteria of a flag lot.  There is still a problem with frontage, plus the 600-foot separations of driveways requirement.  Ralph Pascucci added that they could move the line to give 30’ frontage to Lot #3 which would give them the ability to put in a driveway and improve a nonconforming lot and then go to the ZBA for set back, side lot, and flag lot variances.  Sandra Dalzell asked why she had not heard anything about a flag lot prior to this evening and asked what it is? The definition of a flag lot was explained to Sandra Dalzell.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that flag lots were not discussed at the last meeting because it was not an option that was recommended. Sandra Dalzell questioned if they made the additional changes could they be assured the ZBA would grant the variances needed.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that he could not guarantee that, since it is a separate board.  Town Engineer Ken Martin then mentioned that the wetlands are not shown on the map and he questioned if a road could be built to the flag lot due to possible wetlands or other obstacles.  Ralph Pascucci noted that based on past practice, they haven’t made a person put in a driveway if they had other access as long as they have the frontage to put a driveway in, if needed, in the future.  Chairman Ian Murray explained the three options open to the Charbonneau’s.  The first is to move the line on Lot #3 by 10’ so that there is a 30’access and go to the ZBA for the variances needed.  The second option is to subdivide it as discussed at the last meeting where it was suggested that a portion of the lands of Edward Charbonneau be combined with Parcel #2 to provide it frontage, and then combine the remainder with the lands of Sandra Dalzell and Denise Tefoe, providing frontage to their parcel and go to the ZBA for the variances needed.  The third option would be to go back to the first November meeting proposal of 2 lots instead of 3, which would be accomplished by combining Lots 2 and 3 and would also require a variance for the setback and the 80,000 sq. ft. criteria depending on how the lines are drawn.  It was noted that the third option of two lots is the most favorable to the Planning Board. Chairman Ian Murray asked Ken Martin if it went to the boards as a two-lot subdivision would the SEQR need to be amended?  Ken Martin said that in that case the SEQR would only be required for the marina but with three lots the SEQR would need to be amended. The Charbonneau’s expressed the need for input from both boards on which option would most likely gain their approvals. Chairman Ian Murray stated that he would speak to the Zoning Board of Appeals Chairman, Stephen Bodnar, about a special joint meeting of both boards for that purpose.  TABLED

There will be a public hearing next month if all application materials are in on time and if the SEQR information is complete. 



Special Use Permit


Case #04-01: Robert L. and Jean Tarrant, Applicants 

                      41 Cliffside Drive

                      Saratoga Springs, NY 12866    (S/B/L 167-1-16, Conservancy District)

Owners: Edward and Florence Charbonneau


Applicant is returning seeking a Special Use Permit to establish a marina on 1.69 acres fronting Fish Creek off County Road 68. A seasonal rowing center is planned for this location. Chairman Ian Murray explained that a lead agency needs to be designated for the SEQR process.  A motion was made by Ralph Pascucci and seconded by Laurie Griffen to declare the Town of Saratoga Planning Board as the lead agency in the SEQR process for the proposed marina.  Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – aye, Robert Park - aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, Barney Drumm – aye, Susan Cummings – aye, Paul Griffen – absent, Albert Baker – absent.  Carried 6 – 0

Chairman Ian Murray stated that there are some additional things needed.  An area variance, a setback variance, clarification on frontage and the 300’ minimum lot width are needed from the ZBA.  For the SEQR, a wetland delineation and elevation for the floodplain are needed.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that the Special Use Permit application would be resubmitted to the County.  The 45-day clock for required action on the application starts once the information for the SEQR comes back from all the agencies involved.  Chairman Ian Murray explained that the first process ended with the Special Use Permit being denied at the February 25, 2004 meeting since action must be taken within 45 days of application and now must be started over again.  Ken Martin requested that they have all buildings and parking layouts overlaid on the plot plan, and then mail the plan to his office in Glens Falls.   


Preliminary Application for Subdivision


#04-07 Witt Construction                                                     ANW Holdings, Inc., Owner

            563 North Broadway                                                        194 Woodlawn Avenue

            Saratoga Springs, NY 12866                                      Saratoga Springs, NY 12866

Rural District 2, S/B/L 206-1-38


Applicant proposes a residential conservation subdivision of 9.31+/- acres at 29 Brown Road, Town of Saratoga, into 3 lots of 1.4+/- acres each with 5.025 acres remaining open.


Chairman Ian Murray reported that he had met with Town Attorney William Reynolds regarding the proposed conservation subdivision on 9.31 acres, where 10 acres are required, and it was determined that an area variance from the ZBA would be needed.  Chairman Ian Murray stated they would need to deny the application and they would need to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals.  He stated that a positive recommendation would be given to the ZBA.   There are some conditions that would need to be met before returning to the Planning Board which are the engineered design for the septic systems on the plan for all three lots, subject to revision; a submission to Town Attorney William Reynolds of the shared driveway agreement for his review.  Chairman Ian Murray explained that Town Attorney William Reynolds wants to review shared driveway agreements on a case-by-case basis, opting not to adopt the County’s example of an easement/maintenance agreement for common driveways.  Chairman Ian Murray asked Dave Carr if he could enhance the buffer on the northern lot, Lot #1, next to the McSweeney’s.   He agreed to work on that and Ian Murray agreed to oversee the buffer enhancements.  Robert Park suggested that Dave Carr amend his short form SEQR regarding the adjoining properties and Dave Carr agreed to do so.  Ralph Pascucci asked if he had met with the adjoining landowners and he said no, but he is still open to that.  Ian Murray suggested that he include a note about that on the plan and Dave Carr agreed.     Chairman Ian Murray asked for a motion for action.  Ralph Pascucci made the motion and Susan Cummings seconded it to deny the subdivision application with a positive recommendation to the ZBA for the area variance needed for the conservation subdivision with conditions.   Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – aye, Robert Park - aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, Barney Drumm – aye, Susan Cummings – aye, Paul Griffen – absent, Albert Baker – absent.  Carried 6 – 0  DENIED


Sketch Plan Review – Subdivision


Willard F. Chamberlin Trust

143 Circular Street

Saratoga Springs, NY 12866

Rural Residential District S/B/L 155.-1-46.11, 56.12, 46.2, 46.3


Applicant proposes Schuyler Hills, a 32-lot conservation subdivision on 89.7 +/- acres on the north side of Route 29 (across from Bryant’s Bridge Rd.), with 46.39 +/- acres open space. Dave Carr of the LA Group addressed the board representing Willard Chamberlin and Diane Martindale, who came before the board previously in November for information with John Arpey.  He explained that this subdivision was previously approved as a conventional subdivision in 1990 for 35 lots, but the approval has lapsed.  The property at that time was zoned as Moderate Density Residential but it is now zoned as Rural Residential.  It is now being presented as a conservation subdivision of 32 lots.  David Carr explained that the subdivision is planned around the topography with the best sites for the homes in mind and then a street pattern was developed to access the house sites.   He stated that in following the conservation subdivision regulations, of the 89 + acres, after removing the 18 acres of steep slopes and the 2.79 acres of wetlands, there is about 69 acres of usable land of which they are proposing 46.39 acres of open space, which is more than 50 % of the usable land.  He mentioned that there is no real agricultural land to set aside and the wetlands may need to be reflagged.  Ralph Pascucci


asked if he spoke to any of the adjoining property owners to see if a trade could be made so that a 4-way intersection at Route 29 and Bryant’s Bridge Road could be made.  Dave Carr would like to speak with Jay Janzack of the State DOT first about the specifications for that.  Sue Cummings recalled that with the previous submission in 1990, there was a buffer issue.  Dave Carr replied that the proposed 75’ buffer meets our regulations and is greater than what was previously submitted.  Chairman Ian Murray inquired about the intentions for the open space and he replied there would be conservation easements on it.  Ralph Pascucci inquired about the storm water drainage and Dave Carr replied there is a natural drainage way through the middle of the property that would be managed.  Robert Park asked who would maintain the road and Dave Carr replied that it would be a Town road.  Ken Martin requested a grading plan with the profile and Ralph Pascucci requested no cut zones to be marked.  Ian Murray asked about the elevations.  Dave Carr replied that at Route 29, at its lowest, it is 220’ and at the highest point at the back of the property it is 305’, making an 85’rise.  Laurie Griffen inquired about the approximate cost of the homes to be built and Willard Chamberlin and Diane Martindale said they were not sure at this time.  They estimated the target market at around $350,000.  Dave Carr asked about the next step.  He was told to have the soil tested, the wetlands checked/mapped, go to the DOT regarding the road and check with the Health Department along with providing a visual study of the development.  Chairman Ian Murray suggested a site visit and he will contact Dave Carr within a week or two.  Applicants will be returning.



Darren & Kristi Carrara

888 Route 29

Saratoga Springs, NY 12866

Rural Residential District S/B/L 155.-1-35.1 


Applicants seeking information on obtaining a Special Use Permit to open a Retail Comic Book Shop in their home, located next to the Farmer’s Daughter. No one appeared.


Old Business: Ralph Pascucci requested an amendment to the February 24, 2004 minutes.  A motion was made by Ralph Pascucci and seconded by Ian Murray to amend the February 24, 2004 minutes to include in the minutes of the Michael Giovanone pre-submission conference for a special use permit, the following: The board requested a new plan using the entire 8 acres if they still want 32 units. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – aye, Robert Park - aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, Barney Drumm – aye, Susan Cummings – aye, Paul Griffen – absent, Albert Baker – absent.  Carried 6 – 0


New Business: Chairman Ian Murray asked the board members if they would like to attend a meeting with a friend of his who has mines.  It was felt that it would be helpful to discuss mining permits and the process involved.  The meeting will be April 2, 2004 at noon at the Ripe Tomato Restaurant in Malta.  Please contact Ian Murray if you can attend. 


Ian Murray also provided the board with a letter from Mark Spatafore from DEC regarding the Valente Mining Application and the criteria for restrictions that the town



can comment back to the DEC on, and board discussion followed.  Ken Martin expressed the need to request a secondary containment for where they fuel their trucks. 


Robert Park inquired, regarding the DiSiena case, that if once a case is challenged and taken to court and the court overturns the board’s decision does that give the applicant the right to automatically go ahead?  Chairman Ian Murray replied that they would need to come back to the board for a site plan review. 


The next meeting will be Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 7:30 p.m.


A motion to adjourn was made at 10:15 p.m. by Robert Park and seconded by Susan Cummings.  Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – aye, Barney Drumm – aye, Robert Park - aye, and Susan Cummings, Laurie Griffen – aye, Paul Griffen – absent, Albert Baker – absent.  Carried 6-0


Respectfully submitted,



Ruth L. Drumm, Clerk



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