FEBRUARY 25, 2004

7:30 PM



Chairman Ian Murray called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m.


Clerk Ruth Drumm called the roll.  Chairman Ian Murray – present, Susan Cummings  – absent, Ralph Pascucci – present, Albert Baker – absent, Paul Griffen – absent, Laurie Griffen – absent, Robert Park – present, and Alternate Barney Drumm – present


Also attending: Town Engineer Kenneth Martin, Clerk Ruth Drumm and the meeting sign-in sheet of attendees is on file with the Planning Board Clerk.


Approval of Minutes: All board members present had read the minutes of the January 27, 2004 meeting.  A motion was made by Ralph Pascucci and seconded by Barney Drumm to accept the minutes of January 27, 2004 as written.  Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – aye, Robert Park - aye, and Barney Drumm - aye.  Carried 4-0




#04-03: John F. & Laurel J. Deyoe

              297 County Rd. 68

             Saratoga Springs, NY  12866


Applicant seeking a two-lot subdivision and a lot line adjustment on 5.32 acres at 297 County Route 68, Town of Saratoga.  Rural District, S/B/L: 168-2-68.2.  John Deyoe addressed the board stating that he was seeking the two-lot subdivision, one lot for his son of 5 +/- acres and a lot-line adjustment, of .175 acre, for Nicholas and Lisa Schwartz.  Chairman Ian Murray inquired if the site distance on the corner was adequate and John Deyoe replied that he has a letter from Ted Serbalik stating that it’s O.K.  John Deyoe noted that the curb cut permits have been applied for, Paul Male had done the perc test and the deep pit test with the results meeting the requirements of a conventional septic system.  John Deyoe provided proof that the nine neighbors had been notified.  Chairman Ian Murray noted that the map needs and Ag Statement on it and Town Engineer Ken Martin provided the wording for it.  It was also mentioned that the map needs the surveyor’s stamp. 


Proof of notice having been furnished a Public Hearing was held.  No one came forward, for or against, this case.


A motion was introduced by Ralph Pascucci to approve the two-lot subdivision and lot-line adjustment contingent on the Town Engineer’s review, the Ag statement and the surveyor’s stamp being placed on the map.  Robert Park seconded this. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – aye, Robert Park - aye, Laurie Griffen – abstain, and Barney Drumm - aye.  Carried 4 -1 GRANTED with contingencies.  (Laurie Griffen arrived at 7:50 p.m.)



#04-05: William Patenaude 

              41 Lake St, P.O. Box 784

              Stillwater, NY 12170


Andrew Patenaude

30 Champlain Av.

Mechanicville, NY 12118


Applicants seeking a two-lot subdivision, equally dividing 59.24 acres at 771 and 773 Route 4 South, Town of Saratoga.  Rural District, S/B/L: 208-1-23, 209-1-4.13, and a portion of 209-1-6.  Andrew and William Patenaude addressed the board regarding the two-lot subdivision with two homes to be built.  Ian Murray stated that the shared driveway may be an obstacle because there is no provision in the regulations for shared driveways at this time but it is an issue that needs to be addressed. Andrew Patenaude stated that the County is encouraging shared driveways and Ian Murray agreed.  Ian Murray stated that the board has a copy of a common driveway maintenance agreement, which needs to be reviewed by the town attorney.  Andrew Patenaude stated that they cleared three acres of land to build the driveway and hoped not to be required to clear an additional three acres to accommodate a second driveway.  The driveway has emergency pull-offs every 200’ and is wide enough for emergency vehicles to pass (12 to 13’ wide) and for snow removal. They have a full permanent easement to the driveway.  Ian Murray asked if a second driveway is feasible in case problems arose in the future and they replied that one could be built.  Andrew Patenaude stated that all the neighbors were notified.  He commented that an Engineered System is needed and there is room for the systems.  Ralph Pascucci stated that the system must be designed before the map is approved.  Ian Murray asked if there was an existing curb cut onto Route 4 and the Patenaude’s replied that there was and there was a small bridge over the canal also.  The Patenaude’s purchased a portion of the canal in front of their property.  Ian Murray remarked that they should come back next month with the final plan that includes the buildable envelope, perc and deep hole tests, the engineered system, an ag statement and a DEC erosion control note on the map.



Proof of notice having been furnished a Public Hearing was held.  No one came forward, for or against, this case.


Returning Pre-Submission Conference - Special Use Permit


Michael Giovanone, applicant, Garry Robinson, consulting engineer

1427 Route 9P

Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 


Michael Giovanone, Applicant, represented by Garry Robinson, P.E., consulting engineer.   Applicant is seeking a special permit for multi-family housing located on Route 9P in the Lake Commercial District. (S/B/L 193.06-1-2) 

Garry Robinson, returning with changes, presented a design with two buildings, 16 units in each, for a total of 32 units and a three building design consisting of two buildings with 12 units each and a third with 8 units.  Garry Robinson pointed out that they added additional parking spaces and more room for emergency vehicles.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that the board had received a recommendation to disapprove the proposed plan from the County Planning Board because the County Sewer System does not currently have sufficient capacity to service the multi-family project. Garry Robinson said that he will talk again to Jim DiPasquale of the Saratoga County Sewer District tomorrow.  Ralph Pascucci suggested that he get a letter from the SCSD stating that they are able to handle the proposed project.  It was also suggested by Ian Murray, with the county’s direction, that he submits proof of a storm water pollution prevention plan, a potable water supply and sewer capacity before it goes any farther.  Ralph Pascucci expressed concerns about fire emergencies with no provisions to get behind the buildings; Garry Robinson stated that there would be access to the back for construction and that the setbacks and regulations are met.  Ian Murray had done a site visit and expressed concerns that the project is still too excessive for the amount of usable land, about 4 acres, and if the rear area could be used the buildings could be spread out with less clustering. It was suggested that the board would need a site visit.  Garry Robinson will contact the board with a time.    TABLED


Timothy Banks & Roderick Valente, R J Valente Gravel, Inc.

8 Jennifer Dr.

Wynantskill, NY 12198


Seeking a special permit for establishment of mining use for the surface mining of sand on 49.02 acres located NYS Route 29. Rural Residential District, S/B/L 155.-1-27.1

Tim Banks addressed the board and presented the board with a mining plan map and a reclamation plan map along with the mining plan booklet.  He proposed mining the property from front to back, leaving a vegetative buffer as a screen to the mining operations. Chairman Ian Murray questioned when the mining permit was applied for and if the SEQR process was started.  Tim Banks replied he applied for the permit in 1991 and is meeting with DEC tomorrow at the site at 1:30 p.m. and he will be resubmitting to the state and starting the SEQR process.  Tim Banks estimated that there are one million yards of sand available and that it could take ten to thirty years to mine it all, depending on market demand.  He stated that there will be a 100’ buffer to protect the neighbors and that DEC only requires 25’.  He also added that DEC regulates the slopes and buffers.  The access to the site is also a concern.  The County recommended using Louden Road but the board did not agree that Louden Road was feasible for the large weighted trucks and it was agreed that a site visit is needed.  Tim Banks mentioned that most westbound trucks would use Route 29 to Weibel Avenue to Exit 15 of the Northway and would definitely avoid the City of Saratoga Springs.  Eastbound trucks would use Route 29 to Routes 4 & 32.  Tim Banks would like a site visit with the Planning Board members and DEC representatives present.  Tim Banks will call Ruth Drumm, Planning Board Clerk, with a time once coordinated with DEC.   Ralph Pascucci mentioned that a final plan for topography is also needed.  TABLED



Returning Special Use Permit


Case #04-01: Robert L. and Jean Tarrant, Applicants 

                      41 Cliffside Drive

                      Saratoga Springs, NY 12866    (S/B/L 167-1-16, Conservancy District)

Owners: Edward and Florence Charbonneau


Applicant is seeking a Special Use Permit to establish a marina on 1.69 acres fronting Fish Creek off County Road 68. A rowing center will be at this location.  Applicant appeared at the January meeting and is returning with a revised plan. Robert Tarrant addressed the board with a revised plan. Chairman Ian Murray noted that the plan left the remaining two parcels belonging to Mr. Charbonneau and his daughter landlocked but with a right- of -way easement.  Attorney Dean Coon, representing the owners, came forward and the board explained a better way to divide the parcels to avoid producing the landlocked parcels.  It was suggested that a portion of the lands of Edward Charbonneau be combined with Parcel 2 to provide it frontage, and then combine the remainder with the lands of Sandra Dalzell and Denise Tefoe, providing access to their parcel.  Attorney Dean Coon agreed to rework the plan to correct the bad situation and present it to his clients.   Robert Tarrant will need to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals for a variance for area and sidelines, since he doesn’t have the required 3 acres for a marina.  He can then reapply to the Planning Board for a subdivision to improve a nonconforming, preexisting use and for a Special Use Permit for the marina.  A motion to deny the Special Use Permit for a marina, with a positive recommendation to the Zoning Board of Appeals for the area variance needed was introduced by Ralph Pascucci and seconded by Laurie Griffen. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – aye, Robert Park - aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, and Barney Drumm - aye.  Carried 5 – 0   DENIED


Preliminary Application for Subdivision


Witt Construction                                                     ANW Holdings, Inc., Owner

563 North Broadway                                                        194 Woodlawn Avenue

Saratoga Springs, NY 12866                                      Saratoga Springs, NY 12866


Applicant proposes a residential conservation subdivision of 9.31+/- acres at 29 Brown Road, Town of Saratoga, into 3 lots of 1.4+/- acres each with 5.025 acres remaining open. Rural District 2, S/B/L 206-1-38  Dave Carr from the LA Group presented the residential conservation subdivision plan to the board.  Ralph Pascucci suggested that they move the homes back from the road as far as possible and Dave Carr responded that they could be moved back further.  Dave Carr covered the options that exist for the use of the 5.025 acres of open space.  He mentioned that one option is for the Town to take it over, but both Chairman Ian Murray and Ralph Pascucci stated that the Town does not want to take it over.  The second option is for a Homeowner’s association to take it over and the third and last option would be to include the open space with one of the parcels with a stipulation in the deed that it remains forever wild.  It was noted that this would be the best solution.  Ralph Pascucci stated that the homes need to be sited on the plan.  Dave Carr suggested a site visit by the board.  Ian Murray noted that the 9.31 acres does not meet the criteria of a conservation subdivision since 10 acres are required and that he will ask the town attorney’s advice on the matter.  He mentioned that the applicant might need to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals for an area variance.  Applicant will return.


Proof of notice having been furnished a Public Hearing was held.


The following spoke against the subdivision:

Judi McSweeney, 3 Hill Road, Stillwater, was concerned about the closeness of the homes to her adjoining property.  The board explained the concept of Conservation Subdivisions.


The following asked questions of the board:

John Borel spoke regarding concerns over the effect on the water table and the board replied that the wells don’t have much impact with only residential use. He also asked if there were any lighting regulations in the town.  He was told that if there was a problem with excessive lighting that he should call our Zoning Officer, Robert Hathaway. 

Vivian Wills, 91 Brown Road, Stillwater, addressed the board with general questions on the development rights of landowners.

Al Macica, Stillwater and Saratoga, spoke regarding the number of homes that could be built on the property at Brown Road and the board mentioned that even without the Conservation Subdivision the applicant meets the requirements for three homes, and with a road, four homes. 


Dave Carr stated that he is willing to meet with the neighbors and work with them.


Sketch Plan Review – Subdivision


Barlok & Roohan, Applicants                                            E.M. Mease, Owner

519 Broadway                                                             130 Southard Rd.

Saratoga Springs, NY 12866                                      Saratoga Springs, NY 12866


Applicant proposes a 21-lot conservation subdivision on 65.62 acres on Southard Rd, with 5.71 acres being retained by the current owner and 31+/- acres of greenspace.  Rural District, S/B/L 181-1-12.1  Dave Carr of the LA Group, presented the conservation subdivision plan to the board.  It consisted of 7 homes on the north side and 14 homes on the south side of Southard Road.  Dave Carr pointed out that they kept a 100’ buffer on both sides of Southard Road with a 75’ buffer around the complete project.  He noted that the parcels are about an acre each and there are no steep slopes or mapped wetlands.  He mentioned that custom homes would be built.  Chairman Ian Murray disclosed that he has worked for Tom Roohan in the past and for Alexander Aldridge, a Southard Road resident.  Dave Carr noted that the 31 acres of greenspace is over 50% of the buildable acreage and it will hopefully continue to be farmed. Ralph Pascucci suggested that fewer houses be built and that possibly they could use a shared driveway for the two lots north of Mrs. Mease’s house.  He also suggested that the access road on the north side of Southard Road be moved to the curve of the road, which will create less road and will no longer be going through the open space.  There was discussion on moving the roadways, fewer roadways and fewer homes, with relief needed from the required 800’ of road for a cul-de-sac.  It was mentioned that a Zoning Code change may be required to do that and that would be up to the Town Board.  Supervisor Thomas Wood should be contacted.

 Chairman Ian Murray polled the board and it was agreed that a site visit would be helpful.  Ian Murray will arrange for the site visit with Dave Carr.  TABLED




Lorraine and Nicholas Angelo

58 Whitney Road South

Saratoga Springs, NY 12866


Lake Residential District, S/B/L 193.6-1-46.12

Lorraine Angelo addressed the board asking if she could replace the existing apartment houses at 28, 29 and 30 Saratoga Lake Road with five Townhouses. Ralph Pascucci replied that Townhouses are a permitted use, but require a minimum of 1 acre per Townhouse and she has only approximately three-quarters of an acre.  He noted that she could tear down the existing apartment houses and build one family homes on the same footprint, or if she had at least one acre, she could remove the existing apartments and construct a Townhouse with up to 4 units in it. She stated that there is a possibility of acquiring additional property that would give her the acre of land needed for the Townhouse. 


Sketch Plan Review – Subdivision


John Hall

295 Fitch Rd.

Saratoga Springs, NY 12866


Rural District, S/B/L 193.-1-28.111

Applicant is seeking to separate an acre lot for his daughter from the present parcel on County Rd. 70.  The board explained that it would leave a 109 +/- acre parcel without the 300 feet of continuous road frontage required.  A motion was made by Ralph Pascucci and seconded by Barney Drumm to deny the proposed subdivision with a positive recommendation to the Zoning Board of Appeals for an area variance. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – aye, Robert Park - aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, and Barney Drumm - aye.  Carried 5 – 0   DENIED


Old Business: Engineer Ken Martin mentioned that he has been contacted by Russ Hayter and Amy Walsh in regards to a subdivision application from April, 2000.  It was determined at that time that the subdivision needed an area variance and they were sent to the ZBA where it was determined on September 25, 2000, with the advice from the town attorney and with the relocation of the right-of-way that a variance would not be needed.  They did not return to the Planning Board for the final subdivision approval.  It was determined that they will now need to reapply for the subdivision. 


Ralph Pascucci asked Ken Martin how the Nielson Landing development construction is coming.  There have been problems with erosion control, among other things, and a stop work order had been issued for one week.  It was noted that another stop work order might be needed.


New Business: Chairman Ian Murray expressed the need for a December meeting in the future.  He mentioned that the planning board is becoming increasingly busy and the two- month gap from November to January is too long.  After some discussion with the board members present it was decided to discuss this again at the next meeting. 


The next meeting will be Wednesday, March 24, 2004 at 7:30 p.m.


A motion to adjourn was made at 11:35 p.m. by Ralph Pascucci and seconded by Laurie Griffen. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Ralph Pascucci – aye, Barney Drumm – aye, Robert Park - aye, and Laurie Griffen - aye.  Carried 5-0


Respectfully submitted,



Ruth L. Drumm




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