TOWN OF
PLANNING BOARD
DRAFT MINUTES
January 24,
2018
Chairman
Ian Murray called the meeting to order at 7:34 p.m.
Planning Clerk Linda McCabe called the roll: Chairman Ian Murray – present, Laurie
Griffen – present, Patrick Hanehan – present, Robert
McConnell – absent, Joseph
Lewandowski – absent, Brandon Myers – present,
George Olsen - present,
Alternate Christopher Koval - present.
Due to the absence of a couple of Board Members,
Alternate Christopher Koval was elevated to full voting status.
Also attending: Town Engineer
Ken Martin, Mike Ingersoll, Katelyn Courey, Jim Vianna, Tom Carringi, Frank
Owens, Jim Jennings, Gary Squires, Laurie Williams, Leo Nosal, Katie Gehl, John
Witt, Edith Rubinson, Lauren Kirkwood, Gay Gamage, Paul & Jan Murphy, Hub
Miller, Terri Korb, Darin & Nicole Palmetto, Garry Robinson and Peter
Olsen. (Sign-in sheet is on file in the Clerk's office)
Approved
Chairman Ian Murray stated the first application on the agenda is the Cedar Bluff subdivision and although the public hearing is still open, it will not be entertained at this meeting. He stated the Board received information late in our submission cycle and are expecting to get more information this evening as well. The Board will continue with the public hearing at the February meeting.
Subdivision Update
John Witt, Witt
Construction #15-05
563 N. Broadway
Saratoga Springs,
NY 12866
S/B/L 193.-1-17,
193.-1-18, 193.18-1-55 Lake Residential, Rural District II, Rural District
Location: 142 Cedar Bluff Rd. (Co. Rd. 71)
Returning Applicant seeks a 32 lot major subdivision.
Attorney Libby Coreno appeared on behalf of the Applicant, stating the last time she was before the Board there were questions about the process and methodology used by Hanson Van Vleet, L.L.C. for hydrology testing on the three sites. She said she wanted to update the Board, as well as the public, on where they are in that process. She said some contact has been made between Hanson Van Vleet and some residents in the neighborhood. She thanked the Board for allowing her the opportunity to address the neighbors in a public forum. She then stated in response to the last meeting, they produced a proposal from their geologist which indicated where they were going to install the test wells, the testing process they will be using in order to ensure that the aquifer is sufficient to support the number of lots that they propose, and that it will be done to NYS DOH (New York State Department of Health) standards.
The first step in the process is to collect background data and in consultation with the Town's geologist, they decided to test in an area of about 500' of any adjacent wells. They know wells generally have an impact area of 100' - 200', but to get a more cumulative picture of that aquifer, given the concerns that have been raised, 500' was used. She said there are only two wells that are actually within 100' - 200' and she has those properties on her list. In order to get a clear picture of the aquifer, a larger area was annexed. When they did the circumference of 500', sixteen wells were identified. They contacted all sixteen property owners with a request for authorization to go on their sites to do adjacent well testing. Ten of those property owners contacted them, although they've only spoken with eight of them to date. Five wells have been tested and one is pending. Of those that were tested, they expect water quality results to come back within the next two weeks. Some of that information, regarding the water quality in that report, will be given to the Planning Board as part of the background data. That is being done for the area around the project and they will go through this same process on the lots within the project. Once all the data is in from the background area and the ten test wells, an analysis will be produced by Hanson Van Vleet and shared with the Board and their consultant, to ensure the aquifer is sustainable for the project. To date there is no conclusive data, but there is nothing in the background research that suggests this project would not meet NYS DOH standards. She introduced their hydrologists and asked the Board if they had any questions.
Chairman Ian Murray questioned if their consultant has a copy of the Town's regulations as well as the NYS DOH regulations.
Attorney Libby Coreno responded yes they do. She thanked the Board for their time.
Returning
Pre-submission Conference for Special
Use Permit Modification
Tom Carringi #18-01 Representative: Garry Robinson
1236 B Rt. 9P 114 Monument Dr.
Saratoga Springs,
NY 12866 Schuylerville, NY 12871
S/B/L 193.6-1-46.11
Lake Commercial
Location: 1423 Rt.
9P
Applicant seeks to modify his special use permit.
Garry Robinson appeared on behalf of the Applicant stating the Applicant owns a marina and boat storage on Rt. 9P. He presented an old site plan depicting the marina and boat storage, stating the Applicant received a conditional permit approval in 2002, and that he meets all current zoning regulations for that district as it is now zoned and would like to modify the conditions of the original permit. Two buildings were allowed at that time, the Applicant then reapplied to add a third building, which was larger than the first two. He now seeks a fourth building. The trees and brush in front of the property along Rt. 9P were to be left as a buffer, but, according to the Applicant, there had been a bit of vandalism there and he didn't think cameras would be able to catch the vandals with the trees there, so he removed them. He then stated, also according to the Applicant, the police told him not to put up a fence.
The permit also stated no signs were to be placed and the Applicant wants to put up a sign.
The Applicant would like the months of his seasonal business operation expanded. There are
some customers who want to put their boats up prior to September 15th and/or who want to take their boats out after May 20th.
The Applicant would also like the hours of operation for boat transfers changed, as he doesn't like the time limitation of 10 a.m. - 4 p.m.
Garry Robinson then stated that according to the conditional permit, boat owners are not to have access to their boats while their boats are in storage, they have to wait until the boats are in the marina. The Applicant would like that changed.
The conditional permit states there is to be no outdoor boat storage, but as his business has grown so he'd like that condition of the permit removed. He stores boats outside and along the sides of the property and buildings as well and would like to store more boats outside.
The Applicant currently shrink wraps the boats at his shop and stores them. He'd now like to detail the boats as well.
His showroom, the one at the marina itself, does not have enough room in it, so he'd like to put those boats outdoors in front of that building and he'd like to put an additional office in that building.
Chairman Ian Murray stated this will not be resolved tonight, it will take at least a few meetings to go through this. The Applicant has never been in compliance with the original Special Use Permit that was issued and has never carried through on the original site plan.
Chairman Ian Murray stated Garry Robinson talked about the police, security issues and fencing; Chairman Ian Murray said they will discuss those issues at a later date.
He noted that Garry Robinson was talking about the lake commercial district as if it is an industrial district. That district is a gateway to our community. There is a lot of activity around there, a lot of high-end homes in that area and even though it's a commercial district, look at what we've done with that district. Look at the Stewart's store, look at Mike Giovanone's boat storage building; they are neat, landscaped, fenced in where they need to be, etcetera. The Applicant is asking for no restrictions and no beautification for his business. The Applicant cleared the land and wants no area for beautification. Chairman Ian Murray stated he is totally opposed to it. He recounted that Garry Robinson said the Applicant's business is successful and popular and has grown. He's buying more boats now and having to store them outdoors in order to sell them in the spring, he also shrink wraps and stores them. It's been used for exactly that purpose for the past several years because it is successful. Chairman Ian Murray said he's happy that it is a successful business, but the Applicant cleared all the land to utilize it. There is no beautification to the property and no screening whatsoever.
The Applicant is here tonight because of the complaints of the neighbors concerning the eyesore that property has become. This Board needs to do a site visit so they can all see it as it is. The Applicant is asking for things to be eliminated from the permit and also to expand and modify the permit. Every square inch of the place has some type of boat or trailer on it, which shows the Applicant couldn't even comply with that part of the original Special Use Permit. There won't be any parking there with what the Applicant is seeking. Chairman Ian Murray then asked if the Board had any comments or questions.
Chris Koval stated he drives by there every day and he feels there is no space for parking or any more storage. It can't be treated like a circus there, it's one thing or another.
Garry Robinson stated they'll come back in with a plan, showing the Board how it all will fit and if it needs landscaping, then it needs some landscaping.
Laurie Griffen questioned how many boats are currently there and what is the Applicant's goal.
Applicant Tom Carringi responded he sells 250 - 300 boats each year and probably 20% stay
there. He has to order them early in order to have them on hand to sell in the spring.
Laurie Griffen stated she agrees with Chairman Ian Murray; they need to do a site visit.
Patrick Hanehan agreed and stated the Applicant is maxed out and overflowing there.
Applicant Tom Carringi responded the problem is he's done too much, knows this is self created, but next year is another year.
Chairman Ian Murray stated as the business is so successful, maybe it's time the Applicant thinks about finding another location.
Applicant Tom Carringi responded he wants to stay there, he doesn't want to go anywhere else.
Patrick Hanehan stated the Applicant needs to get another storage site in addition to his current one.
George Olsen questioned if he could store some of those boats inside and how many of his stock boats are inside the buildings.
Applicant Tom Carringi replied 110 customers boats are inside, all the boats outside are brand new boats for sale.
George Olsen stated he should keep the new ones inside the buildings and not outdoors.
Chairman Ian Murray stated the Board needs to see the capacity inside the buildings and what the square footage is on the outside, as the Applicant potentially wants to try and store there as well. Knowing the Applicant purchases 250 - 300 boats and sell those as well as what is already there, the numbers don't add up. Even the regular sales yard is full sometimes - a fireman and/or emergency vehicle would be hard pressed getting in there if there was an emergency with the way he has seen that yard. The Applicant has fuel by the lake, boats fueling up, a parking lot that is filled beyond capacity. You couldn't get emergency vehicles in there. Chairman Ian Murray then stated these are things he's observed and he will talk with Zoning Officer/Building Inspector Gil Albert to see what he's fielded for complaints, to help the Board figure this out.
Chairman Ian Murray reiterated the Board needs to see the capacity inside and what is on the outside before they can go forward and the Applicant needs to schedule a site visit with the Board.
Laurie Griffen wanted to be certain that as the Applicant is at capacity now, he's not bringing any more boats or trailers in.
Applicant Tom Carringi responded yes, he's full and not bringing any more in.
Garry Robinson questioned if he should contact Chairman Ian Murray to set up some dates for the site visit.
Chairman Ian Murray replied yes, he should contact him and they'll set up a couple different dates for site visits.
Garry Robinson thanked the Board.
Returning
Joan Taylor/William
Wilmot #17-22 Representative: James Vianna, PLS
240 Fitch Rd. 170 Lohnes Rd.
Saratoga Springs,
NY Stillwater, NY 12170
S/B/L 180.-1-21.2
Rural & Conservancy
Location: East & West sides of Fitch Rd.
Applicant seeks a two lot subdivision of their 198.5+/- acre parcel. Lot #1 is to be 104.5+/- acres (west of Fitch Rd., Conservancy district) and will be conveyed to a neighbor for use as a horse farm and pasture lands and Lot #2 (Rural district) will remain as is.
James Vianna, PLS, appeared before the Board on behalf of the Applicants. He reviewed the subdivision with the Board stating the property is separated via Fitch Rd. Lot 1 will remain in agriculture and will be adjoined with a horse operation; there will be no residence on that parcel. Lot 2 has the existing house and barns. He stated the survey has been completed, agricultural notes are on the map, and in future, if someone wants to put a residence there, they will have to return before this Board with a site plan. The updated water notes are also on the map.
Chairman Ian Murray stated it is wet there as James Vianna stated last month and he knows it's fields and it's in conservancy, but he hopes the owner knows there's a high water table there.
James Vianna agreed and said the dry ground is pretty much in pasture.
Proof of Notice
having been furnished by newspaper on January 14, 2018, Chairman Ian Murray opened
the Public Hearing at 8:11 p.m., asking those wishing to speak,
to please stand and state their name and address. Seeing as no one spoke, Chairman Ian Murray closed the Public Hearing at 8:12 p.m.
Laurie Griffen read the short form EAF, line by line, which was completed by the Board.
Approved
James Vianna thanked the Board.
(Planning Board member Patrick Hanehan recused himself for the following application.)
Turning Point
Dairy, LLC #17-23 Representative: James Vianna, PLS
649 Co. Rt. 70 170 Lohnes Rd.
Saratoga Springs,
NY 12866 Stillwater, NY 12170
Owners: Raymond
Bryant/William Lawyer
S/B/L 206.-1-10.11
Rural
Location: 651 Co.
Rt. 70; west side Co. Rt. 70 along Town Line
Returning Applicant seeks a two lot subdivision; Lot #1 to be 97+/- acre agriculture field and Lot #2, a 2 acre residential lot with existing home.
James Vianna, PLS, appeared before the Board on behalf of the Applicant and reviewed the changes that have been made to the application, stating they are now zoning compliant with both
lots. Lot #1 will be a 97+/- acre agriculture field and Lot #2 will be a 2 acre residential lot with the existing home. He reviewed the survey with the Board and said Lot 1 now conforms with 2 acres and has over 300' of frontage, he also identified the location of the septic and well and said the existing house has a 30' wide additional easement over the adjoining property to the south for parking and access.
Chairman Ian Murray stated he just needs to update the water notes and James Vianna responded as there is no change he didn't think it was needed, but will be happy to do so.
Town Engineer Ken Martin stated since it is existing, he didn't think it was needed and after a brief discussion with Chairman Ian Murray and James Vianna, it was decided it was not necessary.
Chairman Ian Murray asked if there were any Board questions; there were none.
Proof of Notice
having been furnished by newspaper on January 14, 2018, Chairman Ian Murray opened
the Public Hearing at 8:18 p.m., asking those wishing to speak,
to please stand and state their name and address. Seeing as no one spoke, Chairman Ian Murray closed the Public Hearing at 8:19 p.m.
Chairman Ian Murray then read the Saratoga County Planning Board findings, which stated there are no significant county wide or inter community impacts.
Laurie Griffen read the short form EAF, line by line, which was completed by the Board.
Approved
(Board Member Patrick Hanehan rejoined the Board)
Bonacio
Construction #17-24 Representative: Mike Ingersoll
18 Division St.
#401 The LA Group
Saratoga
Springs, NY 12866 40 Long Alley
Owners: Richard Leach/Peter Leach Saratoga Springs, NY 12866
185 Chestnut Ridge
Rd./10 Mitchell Pl. #4GH
Queensbury, NY /
New York, NY
S/B/L 180.-1-8
Conservancy
Returning Applicant proposes to subdivide a 150.96+/- acre parcel into 6 single family residential lots, with individual septic systems and wells. The two southern most lots have existing residences and driveways onto Fitch Rd. The remaining four proposed lots are to access Fitch Rd. with a shared driveway, which will be constructed on proposed Lot 4.
Mike Ingersoll and Katelyn Koury, The LA Group, appeared before the Board on behalf of the Applicant, stating they are keeping the two existing houses and building four new homes, which are located back from the road and behind a wooded buffer, so not to be seen by the road. The land could fit thirty seven lots, but asking for four new and two existing. Conservation notes are on each plot, driveway details and the turnaround for emergency vehicle access.
Chairman Ian Murray questioned if the conservation notes on each lot, that are on the map, will also be included in the deeds.
Mike Ingersoll responded yes.
Chairman Ian Murray stated there are test pits on two existing lots and then they're showing set aside area for septic; he asked Mike Ingersoll to please explain.
Mike Ingersoll responded he was showing the location of the septic field and that the lot is capable and compliant.
Chairman Ian Murray stated they have incorrect water notes on the map and said we can send the correct ones electronically to them so they can put them on the map.
Chairman Ian Murray stated on SEQR Part I, there are a couple of updates needed for our records:
Page 11. E2, under L - (Is project site located immediately over, adjoining, a primary, principal or sole source aquifer) that should be a yes, as it's listed as principal aquifer.
Page 12. E3, under A - (Is the project site/or portion of, located in a designated agricultural district certified pursuant to Ag & Markets Law, Article 25-AA, Section 303 and 304) that should be a yes, project site/partial project site is in Agriculture District 001.
Page 13. E3, under G - (Have additional archaeological or historic site/resources been identified on project site) that should be a yes, and you received sign-off from SHPO.
Chairman Ian Murray asked if there were any Board questions.
Laurie Griffen stated that this a very nice job and fits the property beautifully.
Proof of Notice having been furnished by newspaper on January 14, 2018, Chairman Ian Murray opened the Public Hearing at 8:29 p.m., asking those wishing to speak, to please stand and state their name and address:
Leo Nosal, 1466 Rt. 9P, stated his property adjoins this and he is concerned about the wetlands and is wondering if, with the conservation easement, they are adding another layer of security aside from NYS DEC and Army Corp regulations. He is also concerned that once sold, the new owners will want to clear back the hillside to the water and put in walkways over the wetlands as well as putting in their own docks. He stated with so few houses being built there, the developer is going to want to make a profit, so he believes they will be million dollar homes and those owners are going to want a view; as far as he is concerned it's all about the money, not what's best for the property.
Chairman Ian Murray stated the easement is in addition to Army Corp and NYS DEC regulations and he asked Mike Ingersoll to speak to that.
Mike Ingersoll stated the easements are for the homeowners only and the restrictions within the easement are additional to the Army Corp and NYS DEC restrictions. The restrictions state that no one can build outside the building envelopes, within the green areas.
Gay Gamage, 226 Co. Rt. 67, stated that area is a prime site for Indian artifacts and questioned if that's been taken care of.
Mike Ingersoll responded that they've done the archeological study and the building envelopes for the homes are located in an area of low/no impacts.
Chairman Ian Murray asked if anyone else would like to
speak; seeing none, Chairman Ian Murray closed the Public Hearing at 8:38 p.m.
Chairman Ian Murray went through Long Form SEQR, line by line with the Board.
Approved with conditions
Information
Garry Robinson, on behalf of Mr. Owens, was previously before the Board seeking guidance on food concession trailers/stands for 1167 Rt. 29. He is asking for more guidance from the Board. He reviewed his last appearance before the Board and said he believes with the changes they've made they are closer to what the Board would like to see there. They moved the parking up and the building back and placed the concession stands inside the pole barn. They will have overhead doors and everything will be inside the structure. There will be some green screening on both sides of the 94' x 40' structure. They will have the picnic tables inside the structure, as well as the bathrooms. He showed a depiction of the proposed building with a knee wall along the front and two entrances, one on each end.
Chairman Ian Murray stated as discussed before, there is a concern with ingress/egress as it is a 45 mph zone there and they have to go through NYS DOT for that permit. He added that stormwater provisions are also needed.
Garry Robinson stated they have a NYS DOT open swale there. He was thinking they'd do a stormwater plan once they get ZBA approval and they're looking to have the Planning Board give them a positive recommendation for the ZBA.
Chairman Ian Murray questioned if this will be slab on grade and Garry Robinson responded yes.
Chairman Ian Murray stated they'll have storage in the winter as this is a seasonal business; nothing but picnic tables and supplies are to be stored on site.
Garry Robinson responded they have a shed on site for storage also.
Chairman Ian Murray noted that updated Town regulations require they pave a 40' apron for ingress/egress.
Laurie Griffen stated the Board would like to see the parking off to the side instead of out front.
She also voiced her concerns with the 12' long, 3' high knee wall in front; at that height kids will jump over it right into the parking lot and that is a safety issue.
Chairman Ian Murray suggested putting in multiple stainless steel cables across and above, that keeps the visual clear and definitely makes it safer.
Garry Robinson responded that if ZBA approves the variances he thinks that will be a good and reasonable way to do it. He said they'll get more defined with landscaping once they obtain zoning approval.
Chairman Ian Murray stated he likes the conceptual design plan much better than the previous one, but the Board cannot make a positive recommendation for them. Without knowing if NYS DOT will approve the permit and without stormwater, it would be premature for this Board to make a positive recommendation.
The Board agreed that conceptually it is much better.
Garry Robinson stated they will head back to ZBA.
Peter Olsen previously appeared before the Board seeking guidance and is asking for further guidance on what he can do.
Chairman Ian Murray stated he's unsure of what more guidance the Board can provide him from what they've already told him. The Board needs to see the sign-off from Army Corp and NYS DEC, see what his proposed docks are, then at that point they can determine what parking spaces the Board feels would be adequate for the site, Mr. Olsen would then have to demonstrate they would fit on the site. He said he knows that lot is challenging with all the wetlands and as far as septic; he'd have to defer some of this to Town Engineer Ken Martin and would have to talk to
NYS DOH.
Town Engineer Ken Martin stated he thinks they'd need to hear from NYS DEC, doesn't think DOH will allow it.
Peter Olsen replied he is looking for information to give to NYS DEC.
Chairman Ian Murray stated the Board has to know what NYS DEC has to say, as it is U.S. waters. NYS DEC determines what can/cannot go in there prior to this Board going forward. Once NYS DEC makes a determination, the Board can tell Mr. Olsen what is needed per our regulations and/or what the Board feels is adequate to sustain and make it work.
Laurie Griffen stated it's got to work within NYS DEC guidelines.
Peter Olsen said he'll be back with more information.
Old Business: none
New Business: Chairman
Ian Murray reminded the Board of the upcoming training conference on January
31st.
Meeting Adjourned
The next regular meeting will be held Wednesday, February 28 , 2018 at
Respectfully submitted,
Linda A. McCabe
Planning Clerk