TOWN OF SARATOGA
PLANNING BOARD
DRAFT MINUTES*
December 18,
2019
Chairman
Ian Murray called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
Planning Clerk Linda McCabe called the roll: Chairman
Ian Murray – present, Laurie
Griffen – present, Patrick Hanehan – present, Robert
McConnell – present,
Joseph Lewandowski – present, George Olsen - present,
Christopher Koval - present, Alternate Walter Borisenok - present.
Also attending: Jim Vianna, Sean Kelleher and Marci
Dwyer. (Sign-in sheet is on file in the
Clerk's office)
A motion was made by Patrick Hanehan, seconded by Robert
McConnell, to accept the meeting minutes of November 20, 2019 as written. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, Patrick
Hanehan – aye, Robert McConnell – aye, Joseph Lewandowski – aye, George Olsen -
aye, Christopher Koval - aye.
Carried 7 - 0
Approved
Chairman Ian Murray stated prior to getting to the items on the agenda, there were a couple of things he wanted to go through with the Board. He stated that late in the day today he received an email with a letter from John Cashin, regarding the Cedar Bluff subdivision. The letter originated from Supervisor Thomas Wood, who had received the email from John Cashin and sent it to the Clerk in order for the Planning Board to see it. Clerk Linda McCabe then handed copies of the letter to the Board. Chairman Ian Murray asked the Board to please read the letter. He then stated he wanted to go through it with them. Once the Board had read it, Chairman Ian Murray stated they are trying to build a case, build a record and so are we, it's our duty.. He wanted to respond to some of the accusations and the fake news that he (John Cashin) has in the letter and went through it point by point: The first paragraph that states: " Chairman Ian Murray stated that he and Engineer Ken Martin have been in communication with Hanson Van Fleet and Alpha Geoscience (Board's consultant for the Cedar Bluff subdivision), and they've come to a decision on the testing procedure for the hydrology. They were supposed to start on Monday, although he doesn't know if they did, but that will take place, reports will get done, and then it will get submitted to the Board; we will wait and see what the reports look like and how we'll proceed from there. He does not believe they will see it before January."
That is a true statement. But then he (John Cashin) goes on to mix it up:
'It's troubling to me that the approval of the testing procedures are taken in private by Murray and Martin without any public input or disclosure.'
That is an entirely false comment because they (Chairman Ian Murray and Engineer Ken Martin) did not approve anything. What they did was facilitate a meeting between Hanson Van Vleet and Alpha Geoscience. The Board's consultant, Alpha Geoscience, wouldn't do anything with Hanson Van Vleet unless there was some type of agent there, on behalf of the Town, to meet with them. We just got them in a room. That is all that took place there. Chairman Ian Murray and Engineer Ken Martin didn't approve anything outside the Board. Next:
'Certainly recommendations of Alpha Geoscience, the Board's consultant, should be heard by the full Board as well as the public who are paying their bills.'
Again, another false statement. Alpha Geoscience's bills are being paid for by Witt Construction, as well as their consultant, Hanson Van Vleet. Same thing with the Board's hired attorney that we have on the case, that's all bourn by the expense of John Witt. It is not by the taxpayers, it is not out of our Board budget or anything else like that. Next:
'The decision to
approve a testing procedure should be made by the full
Board in view of the public and not in private meetings or discussions with
only one member in attendance.',
Again, they (Chairman Ian Murray and Engineer Ken Martin) did not approve anything. It was the engineers of Hanson Van Vleet and Alpha Geosciense working the procedure out. There were email communications that went back and forth that they were privy to that he made two comments on, and Ken Martin, as Town Engineer, made a few other comments on, but in no way did they write the procedure or approve the procedure.
Town Engineer Ken Martin stated the Town hired Alpha Geoscience to take care of that for us because hydro geology is a very specialized part of engineering and he doesn't feel qualified to take care of that, so that should be left up to Hanson Van Vleet and Alpha Geoscience and let them come up with a procedure that satisfies us and the NYS Department of Health. This will all go to the Department of Health when it's all said and done.
Chairman Ian Murray responded correct and to the courts.
Laurie Griffen stated, to be clear, Van Vleet is Witt's geologist.
Chairman Ian Murray replied, correct.
Laurie Griffen added so we, the Board, can hire someone as we've done. We engaged Alpha Geoscience but we are not actually paying them.
Chairman Ian Murray replied correct. Witt pays the bills, not the residents of the Town.
Laurie Griffen questioned that Witt pays the bills but has no direct contact with Alpha; he pays the bills but Alpha works for us.
Chairman Ian Murray replied, correct. They are a consultant to the Board, but Town residents are not paying the bills.
Laurie Griffen questioned do the bills go to Witt Construction.
Clerk Linda McCabe explained that the bills come to the Town and are invoiced here. John Witt has an escrow account with his application and the bills are paid from that escrow account. When the money drops below a certain amount, John Witt is notified that the escrow account needs to be replenished in order for continued review and to pay those bills. This is done with any major application.
Chairman Ian Murray stated and that is true for any subdivision when we need those services that are necessary. For example, another case where we've had to hire an attorney and engineer was for the Southard Rd. subdivision, where we had hired Harvey Wolf as a consultant for hydro studies; the applicant paid for all that, as Harvey Wolf was our representative for the Board.
To continue:
'Such ex parte discussions with representatives of the applicant and only one member of the Board to approve this methodology deprives the public as well as other Board members the opportunity to observe and provide opinions on such decisions.'
Again, not the case.
These residents don't understand it - we are going through a subdivision
application. Read the regulations and
review the Town Code. They have the
opportunity to comment at a public hearing.
This is not a debate and they don't seem to understand that. Although many times he, Chairman Ian Murray,
has drawn a flow chart for them, given them copies and explained how the
procedure works, yet they keep coming up with the same questions. If we disapprove it, it goes away and if
something gets approved, they have the option to Article 78 the approval and
challenge it in court. They just don't
seem to understand that. They think this
is going to just be a big debate. Next:
'As we are all well aware, the drilling and
water sampling has been going on for at least fourteen months. This recent closed door decision is
disconcerting to adjacent residents who are dependent on well water sufficiency
which could be compromised by the addition of 32 new wells.'
What they've (Hanson Van Vleet and Alpha Geoscience) done
is one study already that we haven't even received the results of. Our consultants, Alpha Geoscience, have
requested further, more stringent testing and this is what they were going back
and forth with the procedure on. It took
them nine months to nail down the procedure, so they're going above and beyond. First we made them drill more wells than the
Department of Health requires, secondly we made them do draw down tests. In those draw down tests, it was necessary to
do simultaneous testing to simulate a subdivision actually built, so that the
Board can see more accurate results.
That's the testing procedure that those two firms had to nail down. Not us as a Board, again, I don't know that
much about it and as Ken said it isn't something he wanted to put in his
wheelhouse either.
'Why is it that
these hydrology testing procedures are being negotiated?'
They are not being negotiated. It's a test procedure that is being discussed
between the two consultants on either side.
'Aren't there any
existing hydrology testing procedures already established for subdivisions?'
Yes, and again, we're exceeding those.
'What has been
compromised or what exceptions have been made to arrive at a new set of testing
procedures?
Absolutely nothing and none.
And why isn't the
public being informed of them?'
Because we haven't gotten any testing completed yet. When we do get completed, Hanson Van Vleet,
on behalf of the applicant, will submit their results and then Alpha Geoscience
will present to the Board and at that point, our public hearing is still open
(it's been open for 2½ years), I'm sure we the Board will have some questions
and comments at that point.
'Once the test results are produced, the opportunity to challenge the validity of the approved testing procedure will be long passed.'
That is not the case and they well know that. Especially being the fact that they have an
attorney on retainer now, reviewing every step of approval.
'Once again, this is
demonstrative of the modus operandi of the Board Chairman who runs the Board
without due regard to the fact that it is a Board of eight and not a Board of
one. Critical decisions like this one should
be made collaboratively and in full view of the public, not unilaterally in
private discussions. Operating in this
closed door fashion undermines the public's confidence and trust in local
government.'
As I've stated many times before, I was just before the Town Board in October, again, and I've been advocating for years for the Town to hire paid planning staff; I'm getting overloaded with some of these planning duties. Ken will attest to it, Gil can attest to it, Linda will attest to it too. Supervisor Tom Wood will not put the money in the budget to hire paid staff, be it part-time or full-time. Even the Town of Stillwater has a Planning Coordinator and full time Engineer.
Engineer Ken Martin stated he and Chairman Ian Murray have been working as planning staff getting the two hydro engineering firms to meet; anything that had been discussed, anytime they've done anything, it's come up in emails or notes back and forth with both hydrologists. The hydrologists were negotiating between themselves, he and Chairman Ian Murray were not interjecting anything, they were acting as planning staff and nothing more.
Chairman Ian Murray added that all communications they've
had are cc'd to Linda, she copies them and puts them in the file. Nothing is being hidden and anyone can make an
appointment with Linda to look at the file.
We are not hiding anything, we are not making any decisions, we are not
approving anything on anyone's behalf.
In response to John Cashin's last concern:
'If you share my
concern, please advise your friends and neighbors and join me in expressing
your views with our town supervisor.'
Chairman Ian Murray wishes they would do that and he wishes some of the Board members would do that too, because Supervisor Tom Wood and the Town Board don't seem to want to hear it or see the necessary need to where we need some type of planning staff, like he said, part-time or full-time to deal with some of these duties.
The Board stated they believe these letters put out by John Cashin are to sway his neighbors, as he knows full well the Town Supervisor and Town Board members, by law, cannot dictate to the Planning Board.
Chairman Ian Murray added that they've made the testing more stringent because a couple of years ago they asked the applicant to conduct a water resources study, meaning they asked the neighbors about their wells - dug wells, drilled wells, usage, how many people living in the house and questions like that and asked if they'd be willing to have their wells tested while they do pump testing. Everyone said yes, but when it came down to it, they all said no. That is why we have had them drill more wells and conduct more stringent testing. We are not bypassing anything.
Robert McConnell asked if there is an expectation that they'll be with us on every meeting with every consultant; is that what they want to do?
Chairman Ian Murray responded that is what they want. I believe they want to wear this down or bankrupt it.
Robert McConnell responded bankrupt Witt probably.
Chairman Ian Murray then stated he wanted to go over one more thing that was interesting. Along with his planning duties, he reads up on other planning issues. The Board was handed a print-out of the Amazon Warehouse Supreme Court Appellate Division Memorandum and Order. He stated that this is the case of the Amazon Warehouse in Schodack, NY. This was appealed to the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court as a group of residents Article 78'd it because the Schodack Planning Board did not do a full EIS. The Town of Schodack went to court over this and won the decision. The court said it wasn't warranted. He asked the Board to read it in their leisure. He believes they will find it interesting. Chairman Ian Murray then proceeded to the cases before them.
Public Hearing for Minor Subdivision
Mark Harrison
#19-07 Representative:
James Vianna, PLS
247 Black Point Rd. 170 Lohnes Rd.
Ticonderoga, NY 12883 Stillwater,
NY 12170
S/B/L 195.-1-1.1 Hamlet District
Location: Intersection of Rt. 32 & Ruckytucks Rd.
Applicant seeks a three lot subdivision of Travers old gas station property, located at the intersection of Rt. 32 and Ruckytucks Rd. The property is 3.57+/- acres with 420' of frontage on Ruckytucks Rd. and 340' of frontage on Rt. 32.
Jim Vianna, PLS, appeared before the Board on behalf of the applicant. He reviewed the proposed subdivision with the Board and stated he's completed the site survey and reminded them that in October they talked about the visual aspect of this along Rt. 32 in front of the existing garage. He said they will remove the pavement to the north of the garage and seed it. And the pavement in front of the house, north of the garage, will also be removed and seeded. There will be a small parking lot for the house and driveway on the south end. He said they found that the water supply for the house comes from the schoolhouse, so there is no well on Lot 3; they'll sever that and install a new well to service Lot 3, which is shown on the map. Lot 3 already has a newer septic system which is in pretty good shape. The engineer did the perc test and test pits and they will need raised septic systems there. The engineer also designed two systems that will go in front, off the store front on Ruckytuck Rd. and with the wells and existing septics they'll be all set. He believes he addressed all the concerns of the Board from the October meeting. He added the location of the test pits are not on the submitted maps, but they will be on the final map. The perc test data is on the current survey, but he'll be sure everything is on the final map. He then stated that he's received four telephone calls from the neighbor notifications that went out, but there was no opposition to this, just curiosity of what was going on. He explained to the neighbors what they are proposing and they were fine with it.
Chairman Ian Murray questioned what he is looking to do with the driveways on Lots 1 and 2.
Jim Vianna, PLS, responded come off of Ruckytuck Rd. only.
Chairman Ian Murray suggested trying to combine them on the property line, keeping the one on the easterly side away from the intersection. Crowd it toward the property line; he could make them both like that and it would be fine.
Jim Vianna, PLS, responded yes, they'll keep them as far back as they can.
Chairman Ian Murray then questioned if he could verify the sight distance of the Lot 3 parking space and added it should really go to NYS DOT for a new curb cut location.
Jim Vianna, PLS, replied it probably will not meet sight distance but it's his understanding the way DOT looks at it as all pre-existing.
Chairman Ian Murray responded but for us, the Board, having done our due diligence we looked at it and it's on the record we asked you to contact DOT.
Patrick Hanehan questioned if it is disapproved, what do we do at that point.
Chairman Ian Murray stated we make it contingent upon it. As Jim Vianna stated, being it is pre-existing and he's going to remove some stuff that is there and make improvements on it and make it smaller, he doesn't believe they will have an issue with it. Technically they can't deny you a driveway access.
Jim Vianna responded worst case scenario, if they say no we don't want you to put in a new driveway, then we'd have to use the existing driveway anyway and that will defeat what they're trying to do.
Chairman Ian Murray agreed. He then told Jim Vianna to just reach out to them; he doesn't think there will be a problem. He then questioned what will happen with the old school house.
Jim Vianna asked him if he wanted it.
Chairman Ian Murray responded it would be great to repurpose it somewhere. It's kind of unique and they're dwindling.
Jim Vianna stated whoever purchases that Lot 2 will be the owner. Anyone can contact the owner and discuss it.
Chairman Ian Murray asked if there were any questions of the Board; there were none.
Proof of Notice having been furnished by newspaper on December 8, 2019, Chairman Ian Murray opened the Public Hearing at 8:02 p.m., asking those wishing to speak to the Board concerning this application, to please stand and state their name and address:
Sean Kelleher, 501 Rt. 32 stated the renovations the current owner has done on other properties is fabulous. He added it's nice to see something happen with that property.
Chairman Ian Murray asked if any others wished to speak;
seeing no one, Chairman Ian Murray
closed the Public Hearing at 8:04 p.m.
(Board Member Christopher Koval had to leave
at 8:05 p.m.; due to Christopher Koval's early meeting departure, Alternate
Walter Borisenok will have full voting status)
Laurie Griffen went through SEQR, line by line, with the Board. Chairman Ian Murray asked if there were any further questions; there were none.
A motion was made by Chairman Ian Murray, seconded by
Patrick Hanehan, to accept the documents as presented, to declare SEQR review
complete and to make a Negative Declaration. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, Patrick Hanehan – aye,
Robert McConnell – aye, Joseph Lewandowski – aye, George Olsen - aye, Christopher
Koval - absent, Walter Borisenok - aye.
Approved
7 - 0
A motion was made by Chairman Ian Murray, seconded by Laurie
Griffen, to approve the application as proposed, contingent upon NYS DOT
approval and sign off on the driveway. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, Patrick Hanehan – aye,
Robert McConnell – aye, Joseph Lewandowski – aye, George Olsen - aye,
Christopher Koval - absent, Walter Borisenok - aye.
Approved
7 - 0
Sketch Plan Conference for Minor
Subdivision
Joe & Anne McMahon
#19-10 Representative:
James Vianna, PLS
180 Fitch Rd. 170 Lohnes Rd.
Saratoga Springs,
NY 12866 Stillwater, NY 12170
S/B/L 182.-2-23
Rural
Location: Southeast corner intersection of Co. Rt. 69
& Casey Rd.
Applicant seeks a three lot subdivision of their 112.66+/- acre parcel. Lot 1 will be 2.14+/- acre for residential development, Lot 2 will be a 2.64+/- acre parcel for residential development and Lot 3 will be 107.88+/- acres remaining in agriculture. Lots 1 & 2 will be offered for sale.
Jim Vianna, PLS, appeared before the Board on behalf of the applicant. He reviewed the proposed subdivision
Jim Vianna, PLS, appeared before the Board on behalf of the applicants. He reviewed the proposed subdivision, explaining the land was the Taras old property. It's a corner of the field that the Applicants don't really use and would like to create two residential lots there to sell. He stated Dave Myers completed the perc tests and it's all sand there and the locations are on the map. Conventional septic systems are warranted . He forgot to add the agriculture data notes for Lot 3 on the map, but he will have that on the final map. He explained that the reason he drew a line between Lots 1 and 2 is for sight distance; there is a very small knoll between those lots and while he thinks they can get a driveway lower on Lot 2, he put the line higher as a driveway into Lot 2 due to that knoll and sight issue. Lot 1 can be accessed off the county road, but as in the first application tonight, he's put access to them both on the property line on Casey Rd..
Chairman Ian Murray agreed it would be more beneficial to them. This obviously has to go to County DPW and he believes they would most likely come back with a recommendation to put that on Casey Rd.
Jim Vianna agreed. The rest of the land will remain in agriculture. They'll keep the 60' access road for the field off of Casey Rd.
Chairman Ian Murray stated there are a couple things with the soil engineering and he said the finished floor elevation is a concern. Some of the lots that were developed on the other side of Casey Rd. were too low and when frost conditions came in, that's when those other lots had problems and the owners were calling the Town on it. These lots are higher, but they should stay higher due to frost penetration/conditions and that should be noted to the buyers when the deal goes through. Also, back when Walt Taras was trying to develop that land, regulations wer different. Town well regulations have changed as well as NYS DOH regulations. They don't allow shallow wells anymore. This property is on a perched aquifer but you won't be able to take that water anymore and that was a problem we ran into with Taras; there was no deep water or the deep water was contaminated with too many nitrates. Shallow water is not acceptable by Town standards anymore. You have to drill the well before you get building permits today, according to Town regulations. Just make them aware of that and aware of the elevation.
Jim Vianna questioned if they would give him what they'd like for elevations.
Board suggested it's pretty flat there, Engineer Ken Martin thinks they should put a pit in there and get below the frost line because the surface water will dissipate really fast if it gets into the sand, which is what they found with the few lots down the road.
Jim Vianna replied he thinks everything from that knoll there just goes south.
Chairman Ian Murray said sheet flow everything that way, right. It almost goes to the east. And there was a lot of soil harvested from there.
Jim Vianna added he thinks there's positive draining from the two lots now. He said he will be sure to add Ken's notes on the map.
Chairman Ian Murray stated we will publish for public hearing in January.
Returning
Special Use Permit Review
Marci Dwyer #18-09
800 Rt. 29
Saratoga Springs,
NY 12866
S/B/L 168.-3-73
Marci Dwyer seeks to have her 6 month special use permit amended.
Marci Dwyer appeared before the Board and reviewed her current special use permit, stating she'd like to have it renewed and possibly amended. After a lengthy discussion with the Board, it was decided to renew as is and if she feels they need to go above the 60 it allows, she will come back for an amendment.
A motion was made by Laurie Griffen, seconded by
Robert McConnell to renew as is, keeping it at 60. Chairman
Ian Murray – aye, Laurie Griffen – aye, Patrick Hanehan – aye, Robert McConnell
– aye, Joseph Lewandowski – aye, George Olsen - aye, Christopher Koval - absent,
Walter Borisenok - aye.
Carried
7 - 0
Old Business:
New Business: The Saratoga County Planning Board Training Conference will be held February 5, 2020 at the Saratoga Springs City Center. Please contact Clerk Linda McCabe for registration forms.
A motion was made by Patrick Hanehan, seconded by Laurie
Griffen, to adjourn the meeting at 8:27p.m.
Chairman Ian Murray – aye,
Laurie Griffen – aye, Patrick Hanehan – aye, Robert McConnell – aye, Joseph
Lewandowski – aye, George Olsen - aye, Christopher Koval - absent, Walter
Borisenok - aye.
Carried
7 - 0
Meeting Adjourned
The next regular meeting will be held Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at
Respectfully submitted,
Linda A. McCabe
Planning Clerk
*Please Note: Minutes are not verbatim unless so specified.