TOWN OF SARATOGA
PLANNING BOARD
Draft MINUTES
February 27,
2008 - 7:30 PM
Chairman
Ian Murray called the meeting to order at 7: 30 p.m.
Clerk
Linda McCabe called the roll. Chairman
Ian Murray – present, Robert Park - present, Patrick Hanehan - present, Paul
Griffen –absent, Laurie Griffen – absent, Ralph Pascucci- absent, Robert
McConnell- present, Alternate Jennifer Koval- present.
Due
to the absence of several Board members, Chairman Ian Murray elevated Alternate
member Jennifer Koval to full voting status.
Approval
of Minutes: A motion was made by
Chairman Ian Murray, seconded by Robert
McConnell, to accept the minutes of January 23, 2008 as written. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Robert Park –
aye, Patrick Hanehan – aye, Paul Griffen – absent, Laurie Griffen – absent,
Robert McConnell – aye, Ralph Pascucci – absent, Jennifer Koval – aye. Approved 5 - 0.
Order of Business:
Renewable
Special Use Permit
James and Elena Grotto
946 Rt. 29
Saratoga Springs, NY
12866
S/B/L 156-1-24 Rural Residential
This Special Use Permit was
originally granted 11/24/04, for retail sales.
James and Elena Grotto
appeared before the Board, at the Board’s request, concerning their renewable
Special Use Permit. Chairman Ian Murray
explained that their past Special Use Permit was up for renewal and Zoning
Officer Gil Albert went to see if things were done in compliance with the past
renewal conditions. He flagged those things which were not in compliance, and
that is why the Board has asked them here tonight. Chairman Ian Murray stated that according to the Grotto’s
conversation with Zoning Officer Gil Albert, there are some things the Grotto’s
will be doing this spring. Elena Grotto
agreed. She explained they had planned
to put in the new apron last fall, but financially it wasn’t feasible. They will get it done this spring, moving it
back the requested 20 feet; also they want to replace the fence with a stone
wall and if they are unable to do so, they will move the fence back about 2-2 ˝
feet. James Grotto added they plan to
blacktop where the new garage is and will have the new apron done at that
time. Chairman Ian Murray stated the
parking in the back can be reworked a bit; they can move it to the west
property line a little, perhaps have the vehicles face that direction then they
can back out easier. James Grotto
agreed. A discussion continued between
the Board and the Grotto’s on ways to improve parking and entering and exiting
the property. Chairman Ian Murray told
the Grotto’s that they always do a good job with their property improvements. James Grotto asked if they would need a
building permit to put a small 3 foot porch on the new building to help prevent
customers from driving right up to the building. Chairman Ian Murray responded he should contact Zoning Officer
Gil Albert concerning that. Chairman
Ian Murray asked when the Board can expect the work to be completed and James
Grotto answered by June 1st, 2008.
James Grotto asked if all is in compliance in June, would the Board
consider making their permit a permanent one.
Chairman Ian Murray stated he should let us know once the work is
complete, and we will have Zoning Officer Gil Albert inspect it. Once the inspection is completed, the
renewable date will be June, and if all is in compliance the Board will make
this permanent. Returning
Subdivision
Robert E. and Jan A. Park
57 Trombley Rd.
Stillwater, NY 12170
S/B/L 193.-1-23.111 Rural
District 2
Returning
Applicant proposes to subdivide 5.89+/- acres from a 56.80 acre parcel on the
east side of Trombley Rd., to sell for a single family residential dwelling. Public Hearing
Robert E. Park recused
himself from the Board and moved to Applicant status.
James
Vianna appeared before the Board on behalf of Robert and Jan Park. He stated the Applicants have a 5.89+/- lot
they want to subdivide from the main property. It is on the easterly side of
Trombley Rd. in the rural district; in compliance with zoning, including 300
feet of frontage. Perc tests and test pits have been done with three pages of
engineering and driveway details by Dave Myers, notes have been added, corner
set etc. Chairman Ian Murray mentioned
to Town Engineer Ken Martin that he was looking at the driveway details and the
specifications were if over 200 feet it was 50,000 PSI and Town Engineer Ken
Martin responded no, it was 50,000 lb. truck load. Chairman Ian Murray would like the language added that it is to
support a 50,000 lb. truck and James Vianna agreed. Chairman Ian Murray stated aside from that, it is complete. Town Engineer Ken Martin stated the perc
tests are on there too. James Vianna
stated Dave Myers did the tests and the soils are good but not enough depth; so
it is a raised septic system. Chairman
Ian Murray stated it is all detailed out and Town Engineer Ken Martin said Dave
did a good job. Chairman Ian Murray
asked if the Board had any more questions for this application, there were
none.
Proof of Notice
having been furnished by newspaper on February 17, 2008, Chairman Ian Murray
opened the Public Hearing at 7:43 p.m.
No interested parties came forward. Chairman Ian Murray closed the
Public Hearing at 7:44 p.m.
Patrick Hanehan read the short form EAF, which was completed by the Board. Chairman Ian Murray made a motion and Patrick Hanehan seconded, to accept the documents as presented and to declare the SEQR review complete and to make a Negative Declaration. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Robert Park – recused, Laurie Griffin – absent, Patrick Hanehan – aye, Paul Griffen – absent, Robert McConnell – aye, Ralph Pascucci – absent, Jennifer Koval – aye. Carried 4-0
Chairman Ian Murray
made a motion and Patrick Hanehan seconded to approve the subdivision. Chairman
Ian Murray – aye, Robert Park – recused, Laurie Griffin – absent,
Patrick Hanehan – aye, Paul Griffen – absent, Robert McConnell – aye, Ralph
Pascucci – absent, Jennifer Koval – aye.
Carried 4-0 Granted
*Board Member Robert Park
rejoined the Board.
Sketch Plan
Anna M. Macica
1124 Rt. 29
Schuylerville,
NY 12871
S/B/L 156-3-12
Rural Residential
Applicant proposes
to subdivide a 2+ acre parcel, with the existing house at the center, from a
23+/- acre farm parcel. This parcel is
located at the northwest corner intersection of Rt. 29 and Grange Hall Rd.
James Vianna appeared on behalf of the Applicant. James Vianna explained he hasn’t surveyed this yet but was here for the conceptual plan. The Applicant would like to separate Mom’s house from the farm since they are incorporating the farm. The proposed parcel already has an existing house, septic, well, driveway, plenty of road frontage and site distance. Mr. Vianna stated he needs to make it a zoning compliant lot in the rural residential district. Chairman Ian Murray stated since it is an existing house, the soil engineering, water quality, septic and well are already there. Mr. Vianna needs only to identify it on the survey and plot it out. Mr. Vianna said he will probably have it surveyed in the next couple of weeks. The Board brought up some concerns about the driveway onto Rt. 29. Mr. Vianna stated it goes through the smaller lot and into the barnyard area then onto Grange Hall Rd. so they already have a driveway coming in there off Grange Hall. They are in the process of dismantling some of the barns. He thinks they’ll be in any day with site plans on that. Chairman Ian Murray stated we have a Special Use Permit with them for the Corn Maze across the road. They since have extended that with a roadside stand on the other side of the road and a greenhouse. We think they need to incorporate that into the Special Use Permit or start another Special Use Permit for that, due to the traffic they generate with these businesses. Town Engineer Ken Martin questioned the location of the roadside stand believing it was on the other side of the road and Chairman Ian Murray responded that was correct, it has been moved. He also stated it seems the seasonal operations are on the south side and the more annuals and retail work is on the north side. Chairman Ian Murray thinks they need to get a sketch plan going for a Special Use Permit, identify the buildings, and identify the parking and all that. The Board doesn’t want to start crowding that corner and potentially creating a situation there. Chairman Ian Murray asked Mr. Vianna to let the Applicant know this would be a good time to take care of this as we continue with this subdivision. Mr. Vianna stated the first step is to separate Mom’s house from the farm parcel. Chairman Ian Murray stated the Board needs a complete application and a completed survey. Once we are in receipt of those, we will advertise for a Public Hearing with notification going to the Town of Northumberland, as well as the County, due to this being on Rt. 29. Returning
Arthur Kemmet,
Applicant
183 River Road
Schuylerville,
NY 12871
S/B/L 209.13-1-17
Conservancy
Returning Applicant proposes
a three lot subdivision on a 22.91+/- acre parcel situated primarily between
NYS Rt. 4 and River Road. The parcel
straddles Rte 4 and has additional frontage on Wilbur Road.
Gil Van Guilder
appeared before the Board on behalf of the Applicant. Mr. VanGuilder brought new revised maps and handed them out to
Board members. He explained that his
client might have moved ahead of the subdivision regulations of the Town of Saratoga
after talking with the Zoning Officer.
Mr. Kemmet had been contemplating conveying a portion of land
immediately adjacent to the new back property on River Rd. The neighbor’s parcel was originally 9,935
sq. ft., their garage was right up against the property line and they contacted
Mr. Kemmet and he agreed to sell them an “L” shaped parcel which made their
parcel deeper in the rear by 35 ft. and wider along the road. Mr. Kemmet thought lot-line adjustments were
not subject to Planning Board review which was a mistake on his part. He misunderstood the directions he got from
Zoning Officer, Gil Albert. Mr. Albert
did not tell him that it was non-action by this Board; he told Mr.
Kemmet the lot-line should be no problem and Mr. Kemmet took that as not
needing to go before the Board. Mr.
VanGuilder then stated that Mr. Kemmet filed the deed of conveyance and the
consolidation deed with the County, and Mr. VanGuilder verified that with Carol
Holly at Real Property in the Saratoga County office. Both deeds were filed on
Jan. 11, 2008. Mr. Kemmet is proposing
another lot-line adjustment along River Rd. to add a 10,492 sq. ft. parcel to
other land he owns, which has a single family home on it and was not part of the
previous action because it was on a separate deed. It would make that lot 27,251 sq. ft.. The remaining lots all have frontage: Lot 1 has frontage on Wilbur Rd.; on the old map lot 1 did not
meet requirements, this one does. Lot 2
and 3 both have frontage on Rt. 4 but now the driveway proposal is to come off
Wilbur Rd. along the westerly line of Lot 1 and then it would be a shared
driveway back to the common line between Lot 2 and 3; those lot sizes are 6.6
acres and 13.1 acres. There are some
substantial changes on this plan due to their work with the Army Corp. of
Engineers this past summer. A wetland
area was added that was not previously flagged, they set up the 50 ft. buffer
area all around it with no encroachments.
That is one of the reasons we decided to make this lot-line adjustment. We do have a jurisdictional determination
from the Army Corp. of Engineers, and as the proposal is right now, there are
no impacts to Army Corp. wetlands. DEC
wetlands are along Rt. 4, and those buffers are protected along that area and
we are not proposing any violations or encroachments into those buffers. This covers the changes made. Mr. VanGuilder showed the Board that the
date changes and all updates are stacked on the left side of the map for a
complete chronology starting with October 2006. Mr. VanGuilder stated he did
not expect a lengthy delay with the Army Corp.
They asked us to wait until they had their new guidelines in place and
that was in the fall; they then completed their review and gave their
determination. Hopefully this brings the
Board back up to speed on this application.
Chairman Ian
Murray stated he spoke with both Zoning Officer Gil Albert and with Mr. Kemmet
concerning Mr. Kemmet’s filing of an ‘illegal subdivision’. He told Mr. Kemmet it was illegal and Zoning
Officer Gil Albert did inform Mr. Kemmet it was not the procedure or policy of
the Town, that it does have to go before the Board so Real Property makes sure
they file the consolidated deed and map and everything. In the interim we did end up getting the
consolidated deed both from Mr. Kemmet and from Peter Rielly, attorney for the
Nuebeck’s. Chairman Ian Murray also
stated he didn’t get to do a site visit, but knows there was an unoccupied
house or building and is wondering where that existing building is. Mr. VanGuilder stated it was a mobile home
and it has been removed. Chairman Ian
Murray noted they need to do a consolidated deed on this part of the
action. Mr. VanGuilder agreed. Chairman
Ian Murray shared his concerns with the lot and stated he does not like the
relocated driveway layout or the location.
He told Mr. VanGuilder that they have used shared driveways a couple of
times in the Town and in those rare instances they had enough frontage for
those specific lots to work. In this
case even though there is frontage on Rt. 4, it is not useable frontage for a
driveway so he doesn’t think this is the best planning practice for this. Chairman Ian Murray stated he doesn’t know
what the balance of the Board thinks, but what Mr. Kemmet is trying to do is
maximize the density on the project and run an easement in there for a shared
driveway just to get a couple more lots in there. Mr. VanGuilder explained how they have changed the design but
this layout is not that much different than the previous layout with the use of
the common driveway. Chairman Ian
Murray said he understands that, but now the layout has a negative effect on
the new homeowners; he indicated on the map which lots would be affected. And again, yes, there is frontage on Rt. 4
but it is not useable. Chairman Ian
Murray stated if he had to vote on it tonight, he would not vote positive on
it. Town Engineer Ken Martin looked up
the flood plain and the 10 yr. storm is at 94 ft. He believes Al Knapp came up with that. Mr. VanGuilder agreed with him, and believes the septic systems
are located close to previous locations but is not absolutely sure. He will check into that and verify that the
information is up-to-date and get a copy to the Board. Town Engineer Ken Martin
also looked it up in D.O.H. and previously phoned them on it, and it is a 10
yr. flood level they have to be above.
Chairman Ian Murray questioned Town Engineer Ken Martin if he would be
comfortable sending this, after Lansing does the design, to D.O.H. too? Town Engineer Ken Martin has no problem
with doing that. Chairman Ian Murray
questioned Mr. VanGuilder if these proposed lots will have river rights and Mr.
VanGuilder stated that one lot will retain about 100 FT. of frontage; it also
has a small existing parcel with it. Chairman
Ian Murray stated this application has been idle for quite some time, so if we
go to Public Hearing next month we should notify Stillwater due to Local Law
239. Board member Robert Park stated it
looks like the septics are surrounded by wetlands. Mr. VanGuilder responded
they will be designed to D.O.H. standards, as Town Engineer Ken Martin stated
earlier, and we will go by their requirements. Conversation continued between
the Board and Mr. VanGuilder. Board
member Robert Park does not like this for the same reasons as Chairman Ian
Murray. Conversation continued on the
pros and cons of shared driveways.
Chairman Ian Murray noted the Board did not get updated plans from
Lansing in regards to the driveway and they will have to have that driveway engineered. The Board will need those updates, and the
Applicant will also need to certify installation of that driveway. He also stated they have walked it and he
thinks everyone knows there are serious concerns with the flood plain and the
soil conditions there; it’s almost hydric-soil. Chairman Ian Murray stated again he does not like the plan, does
not think this is good planning practice and would vote no if voted on
tonight. Town Engineer Ken Martin noted
the Board may want the Applicant to go to the extent of putting in a road
sub-base and make the width at least a rural road width on that driveway. Chairman Ian Murray agreed with this due to
the conditions out there and the need for emergency vehicles to get in and
out. Chairman Ian Murray stated if the
Applicant wants to move forward, we can hold a Public Hearing for next
month. Mr. VanGuilder continued
discussion with the Board on property access, possibly changing the lot-line
adjustment application, possibly applying for a wetland disturbance permit to
cross over the wetlands, much like in the first application. Chairman Ian Murray felt it would be a
better situation than to leave that existing lot-line as is. Mr. VanGuilder agreed and noted the point is
well taken. Mr. VanGuilder thanked the
Board and said they will look this over and see what they can do.
Chairman Ian
Murray stated that due to Mr. VanGuilder’s explanation, the Board now
understands what happened with Mr. Kemmet’s lot-line adjustment with the
Nuebeck’s, and the paper work is filed, but we will leave that in suspension
until we figure out what to do with the shared driveway etc.. Mr. VanGuilder
questioned if this gets held up a bit, can we take care of the Kemmet/Nuebeck
action separately and Chairman Ian Murray stated that if it does lag a bit,
perhaps we can accelerate that action. Returning
Old Business: Chairman Ian Murray questioned if the Clerk had all the information on the Board members who attended the county training conference and classes. The Clerk stated yes, all that information is in the book.
Board member Patrick Hanehan questioned, in regards to subdivisions with shared driveways, if the land has to be able to support individual driveways if a shared driveway doesn’t work out. Chairman Ian Murray stated no, the shared driveway is a written legal document that is accompanied with the deed and they have to live with it. Town Engineer Ken Martin added that typically we have tried to set it up so they go along the lot-line but doesn’t think it is a requirement. Chairman Ian Murray explained in the two cases we used shared driveways, they were used as tools to limit mailbox sprawl and to enhance the number of lots put in, this one here is for density-almost like creating keyhole lots with no frontage.
New Business:
Next meeting will be held March 26, 2008.
A motion to adjourn
was made by Robert McConnell, seconded by Patrick Hanehan at 8:23 p.m. Chairman Ian Murray-aye, Robert Park-aye,
Patrick Hanehan-aye, Paul Griffen-absent, Laurie Griffen-absent, Robert
McConnell – aye, Ralph Pascucci – absent, Jennifer Koval-aye. Carried
5-0
Respectfully submitted,
Linda McCabe
Planning Clerk
Return to 2008 Planning Board Files